Curse

Cuilan · Feb 21, 2010, 07:05 AM // 07:05

That post doesn't really say much most people here don't know. Inspiration doesn't count.

IninefingersI · Mar 01, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

It seems that people tend to want to 'fix' character attributes and game mechanics to suit their build or style of play. I think the key is to, rather than 'fix' the game mechanics, 'fix' your build (and/or the way you play it) to exploit the inherent strengths of the class. What you might consider a weakness can often be turned into a strength with a little restructuring.

Back to the OP, as an example, stripping enchants from a Dervish can be a weakness. It can also be a strength. The mysticism bonus is kind of a health and energy bank. If you fill your build with enchants that cost 5e and recharge quick, and get 5e and 15h back when they get stripped, your opponent is depleting his own resources and replenishing yours by casting strips on you.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 02, 2010, 02:13 PM // 14:13

My main toon is a Dervish, and YES their primary weakness is enchantment stripping, HOWEVER if you can resist enchant stripping it would make the dervish overpowered, seeing as alot of the enchants boost the dervish power greatly. Dervish would have nothing but the very basic weakneses at that point.

You get energy back and a heal to counteract enchant rip you get the energy back so you can rebuff when you get enchants taken down, and you are healed which will increace your survivability in case your enchant is removed.

This would also remove some of the fun in laying enchants that when stripped cause bleeding or D.O.T. or burning. They have after effects not only for the reason of being usefull but to be used in defense of an enchant render.

Also, MOST of the dervish enchantments are easily maintainable with a quick recharge, so if its stripped it may only be a few seconds before you can re-up the enchants.

Also as a primary rule when dealing with enchant rip, Place your most important enchants first, and least important last, this way they rip the least important enchants and you are left with what is most needed (ex. Ebon dust aura in a blind build goes before faithfull intervention and heart of fury) That or dont put them all up at once and charge in, because if they then get ripped there is no fallback.

No need for enchant rip defense, if you need it that bad, put vow of silence in your build and pop it before faceing a necro or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The problem with the Dervish boils down to "other classes do it better."

THIS is not nececarily true. Dervishes when played as a frontline YES, when played as a healer YES.

Dervish however are great in other aspects, They are not good on a singular job like deal damage, as a sin can use a scythe better, and a warior can survive better...BUT the dervish has enchants that can inflict AoE weakness blindness, burning, they can deal holy damage, and they have an AoE meele with the scythe.

A warior IS NOT as good at frontlineing AND casting AoE conditions at the same time as a dervish is, they dont have the energy for it, they use a mesmer in the background with epidemic or a support class to deal those AoE base conditions or damage.

A dervish can heal himself better than a warior, and requires less intensive Monking or buffing, and is also much more survivable than an assassin critscythe.

Dervish are multitaskers and are lighter on monks with one build and in other instances Assassins are monk intensive if they expect to stand up and fight in place of a dervish, and a warrior has energy problems when trying to cause mass condition or AoE damage, and is slower on the scythe skills seeing as they are not adrenaline based (though strength attacks work nicely)

The main problem with dervish is not that other classes play them better, its that the people who play them generaly arent good at playing how a dervish should be played.

They play a dervish FOCUSED on frontline, or focused on spiking, and dont take the dervishes ability to multitask to their advantage.

The next problem is caused by the first, and is that because people who play them generaly arent good at playing dervish it creates a negative image in terms of being a good class. Work with a person good at playing a dervish and you will see the difference it makes. 90% of the players play it because they look like the grim reaper, not because they understand what the dervish is able to do.

they can do the wariors and the sins job and be lighter on the monks all at the same time in sacrifice of the efficiency of useing two classes to cover the job the dervish can do in one, they just arent the greatest in a focused point. they CAN tank well, and CAN spike well but in terms of that better to leave it to a a sin spike or Warior tank, BUT the dervish is great as a midline player, and back up the tank.

sportacus · Mar 02, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Here's my fix:

Mysticism: For every 4 ranks of mysticism, you gain 1 energy Whenever an enchantment ends on you and you gain 1 energy for each enchantment on you when you cast a spell.

Aside from making An Orders Dervish even easier to use, I don't think this would make anything incredibly overpowered, and it could make a caster-derv more viable.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 02, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportacus

Here's my fix:

Mysticism: For every 4 ranks of mysticism, you gain 1 energy Whenever an enchantment ends on you and you gain 1 energy for each enchantment on you when you cast a spell.

Aside from making An Orders Dervish even easier to use, I don't think this would make anything incredibly overpowered, and it could make a caster-derv more viable.

PROBLEM

If you have a prot monk behind you, or some enchantment buffers behind you you can in essence create builds in which you will NEVER run out of energy. Enchantments end you gain energy, you cast them up you gain more energy, When you cast spells you gain energy

I can see this comeing if it were to happen-Dervish AoE tanks

You runup with a couple tank enchants like AoS and Mystic regeneration and a couple other armor or block buffs, And have a prot/heal monk behind you loaded with nothing but enchants, You then spam a couple higher cost, high damage elementalist AoE skills for about 5 energy each.

Not to mention i run with 30 energy when i tank UW, and have 4 of my own enchants up and a stance and i have NEVER ran into energy management problems.

Dervish casters work well already, we dont need to overpower them by giving them a well of energy greater than a necromancers :/ not to mention it would make the zealous enchants like zealous renewal pointless, its an elite, and a good one, and if this were inacted, there would be absoloutly no need for it.

(comes from a true dervish player here, its too much, and would lead to good derv skills getting nerfed to 15-25 energy cost, not something i want)

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 02, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Sorry for the double post...it wont let me edit the post, it just asks me why i want to delete it...

If you gain 1 energy for every 4 ranks of mysticism for each enchant on you, at 12 mysticism youd gain 3 energy per enchant.

At 3-4 enchants on average on a derv, you gain 9-12 energy per cast meaning flare=+4-+8 energy and Rodgorts=-16to-13energy
effective no?

2 highpower 25 energy ele skills backed up by a spam of flare to gain energy back (also doable in all other schools of elements) same goes for any other caster class. Dervs would be a beast of a monk, and a beast of a caster, and i doubt even a mesmer could deny all their energy.

IF the energy gained isnt relative to mysticism you will still get 3-4 energy per cast, and if you have a prot monk, or some type of enchant buff you would be getting around 7-8 energy per cast, this is enough to effectively spam some rather high powered ele spike skills.

+3 energy every time an enchant ends +3-4 energy each cast of a spell

Effectively you should be able to keep your energy up casting without a problem, and if the problem persists, just carry signet of...Pious light i belive? it rips enchants and heals you, meaning 3 energy each enchant you rip, so you can up your enchants again and get energy back.

Easily makes the dervish very OP and viable to get meganerfed

reaper with no name · Mar 02, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

My main toon is a Dervish, and YES their primary weakness is enchantment stripping, HOWEVER if you can resist enchant stripping it would make the dervish overpowered, seeing as alot of the enchants boost the dervish power greatly. Dervish would have nothing but the very basic weakneses at that point.

You get energy back and a heal to counteract enchant rip you get the energy back so you can rebuff when you get enchants taken down, and you are healed which will increace your survivability in case your enchant is removed.

This would also remove some of the fun in laying enchants that when stripped cause bleeding or D.O.T. or burning. They have after effects not only for the reason of being usefull but to be used in defense of an enchant render.

Also, MOST of the dervish enchantments are easily maintainable with a quick recharge, so if its stripped it may only be a few seconds before you can re-up the enchants.

Also as a primary rule when dealing with enchant rip, Place your most important enchants first, and least important last, this way they rip the least important enchants and you are left with what is most needed (ex. Ebon dust aura in a blind build goes before faithfull intervention and heart of fury) That or dont put them all up at once and charge in, because if they then get ripped there is no fallback.

No need for enchant rip defense, if you need it that bad, put vow of silence in your build and pop it before faceing a necro or something.

THIS is not nececarily true. Dervishes when played as a frontline YES, when played as a healer YES.

Dervish however are great in other aspects, They are not good on a singular job like deal damage, as a sin can use a scythe better, and a warior can survive better...BUT the dervish has enchants that can inflict AoE weakness blindness, burning, they can deal holy damage, and they have an AoE meele with the scythe.

A warior IS NOT as good at frontlineing AND casting AoE conditions at the same time as a dervish is, they dont have the energy for it, they use a mesmer in the background with epidemic or a support class to deal those AoE base conditions or damage.

A dervish can heal himself better than a warior, and requires less intensive Monking or buffing, and is also much more survivable than an assassin critscythe.

Dervish are multitaskers and are lighter on monks with one build and in other instances Assassins are monk intensive if they expect to stand up and fight in place of a dervish, and a warrior has energy problems when trying to cause mass condition or AoE damage, and is slower on the scythe skills seeing as they are not adrenaline based (though strength attacks work nicely)

The main problem with dervish is not that other classes play them better, its that the people who play them generaly arent good at playing how a dervish should be played.

They play a dervish FOCUSED on frontline, or focused on spiking, and dont take the dervishes ability to multitask to their advantage.

The next problem is caused by the first, and is that because people who play them generaly arent good at playing dervish it creates a negative image in terms of being a good class. Work with a person good at playing a dervish and you will see the difference it makes. 90% of the players play it because they look like the grim reaper, not because they understand what the dervish is able to do.

they can do the wariors and the sins job and be lighter on the monks all at the same time in sacrifice of the efficiency of useing two classes to cover the job the dervish can do in one, they just arent the greatest in a focused point. they CAN tank well, and CAN spike well but in terms of that better to leave it to a a sin spike or Warior tank, BUT the dervish is great as a midline player, and back up the tank.

Being slightly less screwed by enchantment stripping doesn't change the fact that the dervish is still screwed when it happens.

What can a dervish do?

They can use a scythe, heal themselves, and provide utility.

Scythe? Warriors do it better.

Self-heals? Useless and paradoxical. The only real effect of self-healing is to take stress off the monk (since they would have healed you otherwise). But, as melee, it is the dervish's job to kill stuff. If he takes a self-heal, that means less damage. That therefore means monsters live longer and do more damage, putting more stress on the monk. So, you might as well just take the extra damage.

Utility? The utility skills dervs get are never as helpful to the party as good old SY.

sportacus · Mar 02, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

PROBLEM

If you have a prot monk behind you, or some enchantment buffers behind you you can in essence create builds in which you will NEVER run out of energy. Enchantments end you gain energy, you cast them up you gain more energy, When you cast spells you gain energy

I can see this comeing if it were to happen-Dervish AoE tanks

You runup with a couple tank enchants like AoS and Mystic regeneration and a couple other armor or block buffs, And have a prot/heal monk behind you loaded with nothing but enchants, You then spam a couple higher cost, high damage elementalist AoE skills for about 5 energy each.

Not to mention i run with 30 energy when i tank UW, and have 4 of my own enchants up and a stance and i have NEVER ran into energy management problems.

Dervish casters work well already, we dont need to overpower them by giving them a well of energy greater than a necromancers :/ not to mention it would make the zealous enchants like zealous renewal pointless, its an elite, and a good one, and if this were inacted, there would be absoloutly no need for it.

(comes from a true dervish player here, its too much, and would lead to good derv skills getting nerfed to 15-25 energy cost, not something i want)

How about this change (change is in bold)?

Quote:

Mysticism: For every 4 ranks of mysticism, you gain 1 energy Whenever an enchantment ends on you and you gain 1 energy for each DERVISH enchantment on you when you cast a spell. You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 10 seconds.

It would stop you from having a bazillion energy whenever you cast a spell, but would be at least a bit of an improvement over the current system, imo.

I'm trying to think about lifesteal or stance extension in there instead, but it's kind of tricky to get the #s where they make sense (especially when considering disparity between PvE and PvP).

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 03, 2010, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportacus

stuff

Yeah i could see that

And about what a dervish can do to the above poster Dervish can be quite usefull in almost any context of what you posted, and That answer is the exact reason as to why they need some sort of a buff...

Standards get set in gameplay where specific classes are best and thats that, meaning other classes get left out, but if you take the time to use a dervish in a Frontline, Midline, Support, they work, and they can easily do the job wariors or sins can do its just wars and sins can do the job slightly more effectively.

In my opinion however the difference between the classes is so small that honestly it doesnt matter to me. =__= i just need to find more compitent people playing this class

IninefingersI · Mar 03, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

In my opinion, the Dervish is the best utility class in the game.

I also think that is a lot of the reason so many people have a hard time playing one well. The potential versatility of it makes it very tempting to spread yourself too thin by trying to fill too many roles.

The Dervish is much more effective if you decide what you want your role to be with a particular build and focus all your skills and resources on that role.

Its very easy to turn a powerhouse into a jack of all trades, master of none with the Dervish.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 03, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IninefingersI

In my opinion, the Dervish is the best utility class in the game.

To start, I would like to introduce to you Necros, the Imbagon paragon build, Eles and Rits.
The only decent utility/support Dervs have is through SY! (locks secondary, other classes do it better) and Orders. They have good self-prot through Earth Prayers, but that's about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IninefingersI

I also think that is a lot of the reason so many people have a hard time playing one well. The potential versatility of it makes it very tempting to spread yourself too thin by trying to fill too many roles.

Versatility is relative. For one, trying to do everything at once sucks, and I'm sure everyone knows that by now. Trying to fill too many roles isn't just bad dervish tactics, it's bad in general. People have a hard time playing Dervishes because there is NO reason to play them in PvE.Dervs can heal very sub-par, deal damage sub-par to other classes weilding their OWN WEAPON, ect. People look at Dervs and go "Why should I play a Derv when I can go X and do the same thing?".

Quote:

Originally Posted by IninefingersI

The Dervish is much more effective if you decide what you want your role to be with a particular build and focus all your skills and resources on that role.

Its very easy to turn a powerhouse into a jack of all trades, master of none with the Dervish.

Show me 'role' for a dervish to play, and I'll show you a class who can do it MUCH better.

In all, it's not that people here are playing dervish WRONG, it's that Dervishes nerfs along with Buffs to other classes have essentially made them obsolete.

reaper with no name · Mar 04, 2010, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kopa The Demon King

Standards get set in gameplay where specific classes are best and thats that, meaning other classes get left out, but if you take the time to use a dervish in a Frontline, Midline, Support, they work, and they can easily do the job wariors or sins can do its just wars and sins can do the job slightly more effectively.

Bolded for emphasis.

When that is true of everything a class can do at the same time, that is the definition of being underpowered. The degree to which it is true is debatable, but the fact that they are is not.

One could potentially argue that mesmers don't need a buff because they can at least spam EVAS better than other classes. One could potentially argue that rangers are okay because they can use barrage better than other classes in most contexts. Most would say that this is not enough, relative to the uses that other classes possess, and that those two classes are underpowered.

However, with the dervish, there is no "opinion" involved. There is nothing a dervish can do that some other class can't do better. Hence, they are underpowered. There is nothing to debate about there. It is a fact.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 04, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

blurb about underpowered dervish

They do realy need a buff in some form or another. Dervish may be underpowered but they arent so underpowered they cant do jack.

They arent BAD off i play one and im fine useing one, but the problem being is they never realy were able to pick up again after they were nerfed early on after nightfalls release :/ i long fdor the day when they get something that makes them worth something in teams >_< i can team up with people but the dervish isnt involved in much in terms of team play outside of maybe joining guild groups.

ANYWHO this isnt a conversation on how useless dervish are, Please enough with the trolls >__> get on with the origional idea of the thread, a reworking of mysticism or how the dervish can be bettered without being OP.

P.S. and WHY of all classes did the necro get a buff >_< it doesnt need it (i still love it though <3 my necro)